Is Podcast Advertising Doomed?

Dave Jackson: It's... There we go. Hey. That's right. Before we start the show, we have to celebrate that we have a new patron.

Yes. And no relation. Her name is Karen Jackson. She does the podcast, a long look podcast. You can find it at, you guessed it, alonglookpodcast.com.

If you've ever gone to a, you know, museum or something and you wanted to stand there longer than the people you are with, well, then this is the show for you. And congratulations. She just came out with her hundredth episode. So if you're... Yeah.

So you can see here's the bedroom by Peter D. Hooch. There's a name right there. What's your name? What's your last name, man?

Could you see that on the back of a football jersey? Just DeHooch. I love that. Collars by Walter Erfer. So if you're in a...

To, like, real art, like, art art, check it out over at a long look podcast. And, also, next week, believe it or not, we had not 1, but 2 new patrons. So we're gonna talk about who's on drums next week. But this week, we're talking about a long look podcast. So, Karen, thank you so much for being an awesome supporter.

And with that, we say, you said hitting the button, that, hey. Oh my gosh. It's October already. That's right. It's time for ask the podcast coach for 10/03/2026.

Let's get ready to podcast. There it is. It's that music. That means it is Saturday morning. It's time for ask the podcast coach where you get your podcast questions answered live.

I'm Dave Jackson from the schoolofpodcasting.com, and joining me right over there is the 1 and only Jim Collison from theaverageguy.tv. Jim, how's it going, buddy?

Jim Collison: Greetings, Dave. Happy Saturday morning to you. Happy robot dancing morning. I think it's October. Everybody should do the robot.

Right? So

Dave Jackson: Absolutely. It's a great way, work some muscles in your back while you're at it. But, yeah, October, man. It's kinda weird.

JIm Collison: In the air. It's cool. It's, like, it's cooling down a little bit. Halloween, we're starting to think about that. The perfect trifecta of of holidays in The United States are coming up with Halloween, Thanksgiving, and Christmas.

Dude. Boom. Boom. Right?

Dave Jackson: I was in Walmart last night. Could not believe it. Christmas stuff is up. Like, we're not even close to Halloween.

JIm Collison: For sure.

Dave Jackson: And I was like, man. So when you think about, you know, hey. I wanna do a big promotion. Like, they are October, November, December. You figure Christmas is the end of December.

They're 3 months out. Yeah. So when you start to promote something 2 weeks out, you might wanna add a little more to that. But, yeah, I went to Walmart, and I had to put on... I had to pull out my Fonzie leather jacket.

It's a little little brisk outside. But, you know what, will warm you up Mhmm. When it gets a little fallout. That's right. Cup of coffee.

And that cup of coffee is brought to you by our good friend Mark over at podcastbranding.co because, you know, they're gonna see you before they hear you or watch you, and you wanna make a great 1st impression. I am a repeat customer of Mark because, well, he's awesome. Really. I just love the fact that I can... I...

Even there are times when I've given him bad information. I'm like, well, it's kinda like this, I think, maybe. And he'll come back with something amazing. And I love the fact that he usually gives me a couple different options, and then I will pick 1. And then I think my last 1, I was like, I like this, but can I have this color be purple or something like that?

He changed it in a jiffy, I tell you. A jiffy. And the next thing I know, I had great looking artwork. So the beautiful thing about Mark is not only has he been doing graphic arts for decades, he's also a podcaster, which makes it super easy to just just blow everybody else out of the water. So when you're ready to look your best, go over to podcastbranding.co and tell them Dave and Jim sent you.

JIm Collison: Big thanks to our good friend, Dan LaFebelweather, based on a true story based on a truestorypodcast.com. I feel the need the need for speed, if you know that quote. You know it's from Top Gun, the original. None of this is Maverick crap. It actually was a pretty good movie.

But the, check it out. Dana's still got Top Gun out there. If you haven't caught it yet, you might want to. I'd recommend go watch Top Gun again if you haven't watched it in a while. It's 1 of those movies, I don't know, Dave, if you're flipping through the channels and you see Top Gun on, you can always just watch it, right?

You just kind of pop in, whether it's the, the volleyball scene or the sunsets or him trying to race an M16, which is, or a F16, which is not real, by the way. Check it out on today, Based on a True Story Based on the truestorypodcast.com. Dan, as always, thanks for your sponsorship. And that's probably 1 of the most influential movies for me of my teens. Right?

That came out in 1880 And I was 18, and I was joining the military. And I thought the... I mentioned this last week, I thought the military was gonna be like that. It was not even close. Not even close.

Well, I... Not real. They got everything, you know, culturally and and historically accurate except the haircuts. Bill Murray was like, not getting that kind of cut. No.

You just, you know, just maybe a little around the ears.

Dave Jackson: Don't call me Francis.

JIm Collison: That's the best line in the whole movie. Oh, settle down, Francis.

Dave Jackson: I'm gonna play a clip for you. This is something we don't normally do, but I'm... I... This is... Now for those of you that also listen to the school of podcasting, this is gonna be a rerun.

But when I heard this, it's a little long, for for just sitting here listening, but I'm just gonna let it play because I'm going to narrate what's happening. So you'll you'll... I just wanna get your reaction to this. And so I'm listening to Adam Curry and Dave Jones, and at the 37 minute mark, right, 37 minutes and 33 seconds, Adam Curry, the co inventor of podcasting, the pod father, says to the Facebook Muse, that's the new AI tool from Facebook, he says this. I want you to get

Speaker 2: the latest episode of Ed Zitron's Better Offline podcast, but strip out all the ads at the beginning. So let's let's see what happens. Let's see what

Dave Jackson: it does. So that was the prompt he was doing with his mouth to this AI tool saying to go get the latest episode from whatever the show was and remove the ads from the beginning. Now it went off to do this about 8 minutes later at the 45 minute and 8 2nd mark. Adam then reads a message from the AI tool saying that the clip is done, and then Adam plays the clip. So this is Adam reading the reply from the AI tool.

Here we go.

Speaker 2: Done. Today's better offline monologue, Anthropic's $413,000,000,000 burden with the opening ad block removed. The raw file was 12 minutes and 36, but the actual episode is only 6 38, really.

Dave Jackson: So whatever show this is is roughly 50% ads.

Speaker 2: Let's continue. The rest was dynamically inserted ads. I stripped the full 2 minute and 54 pre roll movie promo, Odo, brilliant, Nissan, Levi's, and verified the new file opens on Ed's hello. Welcome to this week in better offline monologue. Heads up, there's also about 3 minutes of ads after the sign off, Zepbound Chase, etcetera.

Say the word, and I'll trim the tail too. Here we go.

Dave Jackson: Callzone Media.

Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to this week's Better Offline monologue. I'm your host, Ed Zig. Boom, Shakalaka.

JIm Collison: I'm telling you, you nailed it.

Speaker 2: Seen the future. You have seen the future.

JIm Collison: Man, it's over. Yes.

Speaker 2: It's over.

JIm Collison: I'm sorry, but it's over. Mhmm.

Dave Jackson: Alright. I'll stop it there. But when I... Look. I've known that this has been around.

I remember when the Wall Street Journal had a, an article that's saying, you know, you could just wake up and say, give me a podcast featuring what... What's the 1 thing? Pork grinds or pork something that's in stocks. You know? Give me a report on it, and it will just give you 1.

And at the time, it was awful. And people said, this is giving me the wrong type of news and this and that. And they said, yeah. We know, but we're working on it. So to...

I mean, 8 minutes, the guy had exactly what he... Now granted, there's all sorts of things about this. There's a charge to that probably if it's AI.

JIm Collison: For sure. No. You're paying for that. Like, which is ironic. Now you're paying AI to do it as opposed to listening to the ads.

Yeah. Right?

Dave Jackson: And then and then Randy brings up the other part that I didn't mention, but he said this was only possible because he connected Muse to the podcast index MCP server. So, again, very nerdy stuff going on here. Yeah. But to

JIm Collison: I imagine I could download and give it... I think ChatGPT has, like, a 256 meg limit or something in there, and most podcasts are under that. So I could probably do that today in ChatGPT if I wanted to. Yeah.

Dave Jackson: So I just... When I heard it, I was like, okay. It's not easy to do now, but it is possible, and it did it pretty doggone well. And, to me, I'm just like, if if I'm a person that's making a living with advertising in my podcast, I noticed that guy had 50% of his show was ads. To me, that is just no.

Cap it at 10, kids, and charge more for your ads because that's what drives me nuts. We hear... I mean, Tom Webster, Sounds Profitable, Edison Research, all just give report after report after report how podcasting outperforms everything. And I'm like, then charge more and have less. That seems to be, that drives me nuts.

But that would make me nervous if I was make... Because, again, that's where we are now. In the future, that's gonna be easier and less nerdy or... I I don't know. I just...

When I heard it, I was like Dave Jones. I was like, oh, we're totally screwed. If you're doing ads, you're... You know? It's...

Yes. It's very nerdy now, but I was like

JIm Collison: Yeah. Listen. You... There's 1000 ways to block ads on YouTube. Right.

YouTube continues to thrive. Like, there's no panic at, you know, Alphabet of like, oh, no. Our ads are being taken away. I... Listen.

I appreciate the the thought here, but it's gonna take some effort. There's plenty of ways to block YouTube ads today. It's still kind of happening in... This is going to be a thing. There'll be an arms race a little bit of like blocking, because we saw this in YouTube, of blocking, blocking the blockers, blocking, blocking the blockers, right?

All those will have this kind of thing. I think it just, know, hey, listen, if you're going to put those kinds of easy discoverable ads by those kinds of services, you're going to run the risk of have them being discovered by these kinds of services. This isn't the 1st or the last to block ads. It's cool and it's getting easier. Listen, there'll be a podcast player that comes out at some point that's going to offer this as part of it, downloads it, strips them out, right, some of those kinds of things.

You're paying for this 1 way or another, though. Right? You know that.

Dave Jackson: You're paying That's right. Time or money is going to come back into play again.

JIm Collison: Yeah. I mean, it's not free. The AI is not free to do this. So you're going to pay for it. Okay, I take that back.

In some cases, it might be free right now. Because, like, there's an arms race in AI, right? And folks are trying to get their stuff out there and get you hooked on it. Listen, OpenAI has got me hooked. I, I'm gonna admit it.

Like I, if they all of a sudden said, You know what, you're, we're gonna have to chart I shouldn't say this out loud $50, I would be like, Okay, I'll cut back on eating, you know, because it's super helpful, right?

Dave Jackson: Well, Randy says I just connected my Muse agent named Captain Sasquatch I like it. To the podcast index MCP server. I'm gonna play around with it. So that's, interesting. Dan says, as long as online ads have been a thing, people have found ways to block the ads.

Yep. Yes. Companies find a way around those ad blockers. It's a cycle that has always happened and will always happen. Yep.

Very true. Jeff C, the 1 and only, awesome supporter, I think the monetization of content is going to totally change. The stuff is moving so fast. Yeah. I I think we're gonna see more people doing the $4 a month for a subscription, $3 a month.

And if you could get then, you know, more than 3% of your audience, you know, because

JIm Collison: Oh, I

Dave Jackson: don't That guy had... 50% of his content was ads. And if I really like that guy, I might spend $3 a month to not have ads. I don't know. I don't remember this.

Do you remember... Did you ever have a TiVo? Dan says, remember

JIm Collison: what have

Dave Jackson: a TiVo.

JIm Collison: But I do remember this.

Dave Jackson: Had an ad skip button on the remote control on the remote control. Wow. Okay.

JIm Collison: Well, there's 2... The the TV, it's a Plex. There we go. The Plex TV service, right, that you can... Where you can run your own version, your own TV, watch your own movies, those kinds of Both that and channels.

I use the channels version. I had that guy on my show a couple times. They have, they have ad skippers on there where you can go in and, you know, they try to identify, though it's not hard, just watch for the volume to go up by 2. And you're like, Okay, that's probably an ad. But they both have skippers on it.

Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, listen, good, good on Adam for bringing this up. And it's, this isn't the 1st, you know, this isn't 1st. Of course, Muse is getting a lot of traction or a lot of ad, no, a lot of conversation. There we go. Facebook has kind of stirred that up, or Meta has kind of stirred that up recently.

It's worth taking a look at. I don't, I don't know how good it is. I haven't, I have not really messed around with it yet. So 1 of those you might want to listen, as a podcaster, I think you've got to be, depending on how nerdy you are, you've got to be, or geeky, either 1 of those. You got to kind of be keeping your eye on the forefront of what's happening and services that are being and you don't have to be cutting edge all the time.

In fact, you know, we used to say bleeding edge is 1 thing, because that's painful. Like nobody wants to bleed. But cutting edge, Okay, that's a little bit easier than maybe just the edge edge where you're, you're out there. I think it's good. That's maybe where this show is a good, a good, is good for some, because we get, we're not bleeding edge, but oftentimes we're talking about an early cutting edge stuff.

Listen, I was going back and looking at some of my podcasts from like 2012 this week as I was going through some files, and I was like, Oh my god, those are terrible. I can't believe I put those things out. What, they just look bad, right? And, and, but we made all those changes from going on Google Hangouts to then StreamYard. You know, we were early adopters in the StreamYard, both here and on Home Gadget Geeks.

And so I think you got to just kind of keep your eyes open, right, or listen to shows that do.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Ralph says, My prediction is that in the end, these things will eliminate the independent DIY podcaster who hopes to make money with program... Basically, ads. The networks will be able to do it because of scale. And I I think that was my thing is, like, if if it...

The easier it is to remove ads... Because right now, we keep hearing how there's billions. Billions of money is on the table, and we're not doing anything about it, which is why there was the amp accords, and everybody's trying to figure out what a view is. And I'm like, with stuff like this, I'm like, and and, again, we knew this was possible. I just hadn't heard anybody do it live.

And when I went, and, again, to Randy's point, he was connected to a server. There's some nerdiness in there, but I just was like, that's a lot closer than I thought. And have fun trying to convince a advertiser to advertise on a podcast if you can show somebody how easy it is to have it removed. So it'll be interesting to see. Chris Nessie says anybody regret, some, he's...

He says later here. That's a typo. Some if the automations or use of AI in their podcast. We... We're mostly geeks and and nerds who love a lot of this.

I have done some stuff. Oh, I can tell you 1 easily. I I always speak my show notes, and I went through... And I've done this twice now, and I'm gonna quit doing it. But I will...

I use WhisperFlow. I type my show notes, or I I talk my show notes. And then for whatever reason, I took it and threw it into Claude and said, hey. You know, kinda give this the once over. And it went in and changed the spelling of people's names.

Like, I know how to spell Ralph Estep junior. And, yet, I was like, okay. Great. And so if I ever do that again, which I'm probably not, I'm going to ask it, take a look at this and let me know what you changed. Because Ralph's like, hey.

Spelled my name wrong. And I was like

JIm Collison: easier just to say don't change names. Like if don't change proper names. And that runs a risk there too, because it may see something you spelled wrong. It may think it's a proper name. Listen, spell check has always had this problem.

This is not new to This has always had that problem with proper names and locations and some of those kinds of things. So not new to the era. If you're gonna have it do those kinds of things, Dave, I'd recommend actually a 2 step method. So have it fix it, and then have it go back through again and say, Hey, look for misspellings where it may have done a proper name. Or you could just even ask it, Did you, did you change anybody's name and have it go back through?

I often do 3 steps on edits.

Dave Jackson: I just know when I when I went back and looked at it, I was like, what I had actually spoken, WhisperFlow does a pretty good job of putting in commas and making sure the grammar is okay. And I was like, maybe I don't need to do this extra step. You're always worried about

JIm Collison: it. Yeah.

Dave Jackson: I I don't know. Jeff has a great point. He says growing community will still be the main thing. Yeah. I agree with that.

The problem is that everyone wants recurring revenue, but it's hard to create recurring revenue. I was kind of bummed to hear... They announced this a while, and it's it's gonna happen in November. But if you were a person... I'll give you an example.

Jen Briney does congressional DISH. And there are times, as you might imagine, because she covers what's going on in congress, that her actual content makes her depressed, and it's politics. And she's got both sides of her audience arguing with her, and she'll just like, I need to take a break. Well, there was a thing she had on Patreon where you could say, I will be your patron, and I will pay you x amount of money per episode. And so if she did 4 episodes in a month, I paid her 4 times.

If she did 1 episode a month, I paid her once. If she did no episodes in a month, I didn't pay her. It was based on... Because she would occasionally take breaks, and they're removing that. It's gonna be monthly only.

And I was like, it'll be interesting to see if anybody comes along and takes up that feature, maybe adds it to their stuff or whatever. Because I always thought, oh, that's really cool. Because there are... I mean, Dan Carlin puts out 1 episode, I don't know, every 3 months, 4 months. Now when he puts it out, it's 4 hours long.

It's basically an audiobook, but that would be a great... And and the only thing I can think of is it's just... It's a... It's another version of getting paid. So for Patreon, they're like, hey.

Wait. Is that gonna work for the people that are using this model? And the answer probably was no. And they're like, oh, we gotta keep this this bit of code in for this and that. So if they eliminate that feature...

But that's just 1 that I was like, kinda bummed to hear that. Yeah. Rich Graham says, it's pretty easy to skip through the 1st 2 or 3 minutes of a podcast with regular buttons on a regular player. Adam Curry does another show called, no agenda, and, unfortunately, he... His cohost died.

And so he's been having new cohosts every week. And so, unfortunately, it's usually intro, little bit of chitchat, and then right to the stories. Now it's a lot of chitchat, introduction, theme song he's going through now making theme songs about his co host. So I now have... And I love Adam to death, but I'm like, I have that show now in my pocket cast.

It starts at 10 minutes. Mhmm. Because by the time he, you know, does the show, I'm like, I... I'm here to hear what's going on in the news. So, again, that's something else that...

That's how I skip a lot of ads. If, Conan O'Brien is another guy that starts about 10 minutes because 1st, he has to do an ad, then he has to make fun of his staff for about 10 minutes, which I guess if you really love Conan, that's your favorite part of the show. But for me, I'm like, no. I wanna get to the Paul McCartney interview. Ralph says, ads are not working for independent DIY creators now, and these changes will completely eliminate them.

Sell your own stuff Yeah. Or build a paid community. Yeah. I mean, there are always those exceptions. You've got, good old Ray over at, aroundthelayout.com.

He does a show about model trains, and he's doing, do I have the book? Yes. You might as well give Justin a plug. You know, this thing, sponsor magnet by Justin Moore, where you build a partnership with a... And, usually, these are smaller companies.

They're not... It's not Nike. It's not Coke. It's, you know, some small to medium sized company that really fits your niche, and you work together. Glenn does this with horse people.

Right? So, you know, it's, that I think will... Is gonna stick around because, again, those people will actually listen when you say, look. There are 80,000,000 reports over here. The show how podcasting outperforms everybody else.

You know? Do you wanna be on my show? Let's work out a deal. Where the problem when you get into the Nikes and the Cokes and the, you know, whoever else, the big giant companies, they... You know?

And you say, I've got 20,000 downloads a month. They're like, wait. What? That's like a grain of sand on the beach to them. They don't wanna work with with small people.

We... You could be the biggest podcast and, still be too small to work with. Todd the Gator says, memberships or Patreon and subs is the main way that small creators can make money to support their hobby. The ad payment structure for podcasting is dreadful, and the only big, and only the big pods use it anyway. Yeah.

I always say, you know, if you buy my book, I make $12. If I was getting $5 CPM, I'd need 2,400 downloads. So what's easier? 1 book... Selling 1 book or getting 2,400 downloads.

So

JIm Collison: Wait a wait a minute. You wrote a book? I haven't heard about this yet.

Speaker 2: Yes. They all

JIm Collison: What's the name of it? When when did you... This is awesome.

Dave Jackson: Profit from your podcast. Turn your, pro... What is it again? Proven strategies. Not just strategies.

Proven strategies.

JIm Collison: Proven strategies.

Dave Jackson: To turn listeners into a livelihood. Available at profitfromyourpodcast.com. I wonder

JIm Collison: if they buy that direct... Is that a link to Amazon that

Dave Jackson: No. That takes profit fromyourpodcast.com/book, gives you a link to where you can buy the book on Amazon or get the audiobook. And I I keep saying... I keep threatening to put the audiobook on Audible because right now it's on a different app. But, man, Amazon just oh, have you heard this?

Like, I can't say the r word that I wanna say.

JIm Collison: Rich?

Dave Jackson: Nope. No. No. I... But I will say Amazon, it's like they grape you.

And I was

JIm Collison: like Right.

Dave Jackson: And you also can't Right. Say... On YouTube, you can't say, like, the drummers... The dead drummer of the Rolling Stones was Charlie Sexton. You can't say the beginning of his last name.

Because I was watching this this YouTube video, and every now and then, the guy was just talking, and and he... Just this word would just... And Oh,

JIm Collison: it disappeared.

Dave Jackson: And he's like... And he finally about halfway through the videos, if you're noticing that the audio is dropping, there's nothing wrong with your phone or whatever. He goes, these are words that get you banned on YouTube. And I was like, you can't say... You know, like, if somebody were to grape you, that's an SA now.

You can't say Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, wow. That's, why YouTube, again, is not my favorite thing. Yeah.

So... Yeah. Yeah. I was like, okay.

JIm Collison: Shouldn't be the same in those words anyways. I mean, come on.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. And then Todd the Gator's nailing it today. Hence, the reason why so many podcasters burn out from misaligned expectations and not the actual love for the topic. Yeah. When people...

I still have people literally will say, I wanna quit my job in 6 months. And I'm like, alright. So how big is your email list? What's an email list? Okay.

And how big is your social following? And, you know, how long... Just... You know, I'm like, well, I I don't think you're gonna quit your day job in 6 months or 6 weeks. Yeah.

Then, Ralph says the other concern about subscriptions is the overall subscription fatigue, yeah, that people are getting because they feel like they're being nickeled and dimed to death, death by 1000 paper cuts. Yeah. Exactly. It's, I know I just went through and and killed a bunch of subscriptions that I had. So, and then Dan brings up a great point.

Ads require salespeople to sell ads. That's a full time job, yep, by itself, and podcasters already have 1 of those creating the content. When, Libsyn bought AdvertiseCast, that was basically a company of salespeople. There was, like, 1 developer and 1 kind of office manager kind of thing, and the rest, they were all salespeople. Yeah.

So

JIm Collison: Have to be.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Gotta sell the stuff.

JIm Collison: The our ads, gotta sell them. Right? Gotta gotta get them. Like, you have to convince... Part of the part of the problem is you gotta convince these brands to come and spend money so that there are assets for them to sell back to you.

Right? That's their job. So it's not a, it's not easy street for them. You know, ask any radio or television advertising individual that has to, especially the local radio stations that are still selling ads, right? They're still selling out and trying to get local ads and such.

Dave Jackson: What I don't get is I've done this on a couple shows where it's a radio show, and they're like, oh, you can you can listen to the podcast. So if you... Because I'll tune in, like, halfway through. And they're like, don't forget. If you missed any of this, you know, download it on the iHeart app or whatever.

So I'll see they have a podcast. And everyone I've done this to, they're not playing the ad... Like, the ads that I hate on the radio, like, they go, we'll be back in... Like, 4 minutes later. You're done with breakfast.

You cooked your eggs. You ate it, and you put your dishes in the dishwasher. They're still playing ads. You're like, what the heck? Yeah.

JIm Collison: That's great.

Dave Jackson: And they're not in the podcast. And I'm like, the only thing I can think of is maybe if they had music in the background, it wasn't cleared. But I'm like, why aren't you saying it's x amount of money to sponsor the live radio show, x amount to have your your post on the website, and x amount to to support the podcast? I'm like, that's the dumbest thing ever. But it's kinda cool because it's an easy way to get the radio ad free, but I don't listen to the radio enough to subscribe to that.

But

JIm Collison: I I think ads are still not proven for podcasting. Like, the reach, I think these brands that are buying these ads are still being bought by folks who are like very skeptical of them paying to put their their ad on a podcast. They think they still see podcasting as an unproven market. And so I think they are splitting it up. And they're like, Hey, you could do radio.

We got these stats here. You could do podcasting. We have these kinds of stats here. Well, radio is kind of a slam dunk. They've been doing radio for 1000 years.

They know radio. They know how this works. They know how to measure it, all those kinds of things. With podcasting, I think for some, I, listen, I think we're getting better at this. But I think for some, there are those just buying the ads who are still very, very skeptical of podcasting, just for the reasons we talked about 15 minutes ago, the ad blocking and like, in traditional radio today, you can't skip the ads for the most part, right?

You got to listen to them. That's part of the, it's part of the gig. And so with podcasting, it's just so easy to get those skipped. So I think there's some skepticism still in it. I think it's been discounted in their mind.

And so if you're going to spend your money, I think today, the buy, the buyers, the folks who are buying those ads, are like, I'm going go to the radio. I know how it works. I've been doing it for 1000 years and, you know, whatever. And so will that change over time? I don't have to find out.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. We hinted about getting burned out. Stephanie says you can love the topic and still get burned out. Yep. That's why I always say, you know, time, how long it takes, to make an episode, and then pick your schedule.

Don't pick your schedule and then try to squeeze your life into your podcast. Do it the other way around. Squeeze your podcast into your life. We're gonna switch over. Ralph has a new question.

Says, do you feel that everyone has gotten to a point of social media fatigue, and we should just stop doing any social media promos since people have just tuned out? I actually No.

JIm Collison: Yeah. Yeah. I Not in 1000000 years.

Dave Jackson: I am surprised. We've been doing these growth. We just get together on Wednesdays at the school of podcasting and talk about growth. Like, last Wednesday, we we talked a lot about newsletters. What do you put in them?

How do you do them? What does what? And so 1 week, I was talking... I I did about 3 episodes ago, and I'm gonna be talking about this on... This is the topic of the school of podcasting this week is I purposely started using social media, and I used...

Oh, I forget the name of the thing. Something starts with an s. Hold on. Shortlink.io. Because I use Switchy, but I know people wanna do stuff for free.

So short.io. And every time I posted something on social, it had... I had to because it took an extra 42 seconds. I know. 42 seconds.

Dave, that's 1000000 years. No. It's it's 42 seconds to make a a thing that was trackable. And I was... How many clicks do you think I got from 1 post?

2. That's what I thought. 2, 6, maybe. Less... No.

No. 36.

JIm Collison: Oh, k.

Dave Jackson: And I went, Okay. So that was, no. Actually, I take that back. It was 10. But when I posted it to x and threads...

And Blue Sky, by the way, has a bot. They definitely have a bot. Because when I post anything to Blue Sky, within seconds, I have 5 clicks. And I'm like, oh, okay. Hold on.

Yeah. And then, yeah, basically... And I made a a link for every single 1. Like, here's this on Facebook. Here's a link on YouTube, and it was, like, 36 for the episode per week.

So if we round that up for easy ad, let's say it was 40, that's a 160 a month. And I... And that's from 1 episode, and that's 1 post. If I posted and I was like, now that's not listens. That's clicks.

That means I got them on my website. But I was I was with you. I thought 2. In fact, in some cases, it was 3, 5, something like that. But when you looked at it, I was like, well, how long did it take to do that?

And in fact, let me just, for those of you listening, I'm going to read this to you, which is kinda always fun if I can find my StreamYard again. And I just... I was, I I just was like, wait. What... Okay.

We're gonna get the weird

JIm Collison: clitoscill. Singularity.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Now this 1 is is interesting, but because I work for Podpage, I started putting links to the school of podcasting and Podpage. Now that has, I don't know, 15,000 people on that newsletter, and I got 75 clicks. So, you know, let's let's do the math on this, shall we? 15...

Or wait. Hold on. 75 divided by... I will say 14,000. I forget exactly how many people are on our newsletter.

Yeah. And then times that by a 100.

JIm Collison: 0.5 of 1%.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. It's, yeah. Point 5%. But you can see we're here from YouTube. No.

This is on Twitter pointing people to YouTube. 6, 7, 9. We'll skip all these because those are pod page. 13, 9, 7, 2, 9, 1, 5, 2, 5. But if I did this every day...

And, again, how long... Like, literally, if I if I said, hey. Let's let's, send people to ask the podcast coach. So I grabbed my link, and, I'm just copying it here in, short.io. Short.io by the way is free.

I really like Switchy, though. And I said from show. And over here, I could say this was on Twitter because I wanna... I'm just putting this here, and I'll say, hey. Let's organize this in a social folder, and I'm gonna copy this.

And I go to Twitter and, and I still call it Twitter because I'm old, and I say, we're live now or something. I don't expect anybody to click on this, but I paste it. If we started to stopwatch... That's cute little kids here on Twitter on Halloween. Probably AI because it's really cute.

But, anyway, that took 40 that took 42 seconds, you know, really, to to do. And I'm like... You know, when I looked at it, 5, 6, 7, 4, 3, 11. You know? I'm like, okay.

Because it it took 42 seconds to get 11 clicks. Okay. Then if I did that every day, that would be 70 clicks a week. You know? So, no, I don't think...

Now I will agree when I go to social and I look... I am... I'm just looking for anything. I... And usually for me, if I see something from a show that I already...

Is already in my app and they go, hey. On this week's episode, we talk about turning dog poop into gold. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. I go to my phone because I'm already on it and go, where's that episode about the dog poop? Wait.

Click play. So... And I... Same thing for my newsletter. I've had people say, I heard you talk about the question of the month in your show.

I'm glad I'm on your newsletter because you reminded me to go answer it. So I think social in some cases... I don't know about getting a new audience. I think for me, they're not getting a new audience member, but they are getting somebody to consume their content, which builds the relationship. And it is also...

If it's really, really, really, really good, I might share it with somebody. I don't know. What about you, Jim? What do you do when you're doing social?

JIm Collison: Well, I, you you know, I've been doing this this experiment on YouTube where I've been doing shorts. Been... You know? And I... I've always resisted those.

I'm kinda like, I don't know. They're too hard to make. I don't want to mess around with them. I figured out a way to make them easier and go faster in, in some of those cases that get a little bit better. And, they have, you know, have, did I, did I all of a sudden become a millionaire overnight on Shorts revenue?

No. But it's really kind of taught me a lot about the idea of just, I think you just got to be consistent. So, you know, I, over the last 3 weeks, I tried a couple of Shorts. They were really successful. I did a few more.

They were less than successful. Then the the week... The next week, I started posting a whole bunch of them. And 1 of my subscribers who knows me really well sent me a Facebook message like, what are you doing? You are blowing up my YouTube feed.

Stop it. Like, could you slow down just a little bit and say, Hey, sorry, I'm testing some things out. Well, we'll get back to a 1 a day, you know, kind of a 1 a day methodology. But that's where I am moving. You might want to adjust your, the way you get your, your feeds from me, your, your alerts from me.

Same has been true on X. I've been, I've been trying out just being consistent on it to see what it kind of brings back. Put it on, measure it. Lot of times the algorithms favor consistency over pizzazz or shock and awe, some of those kinds of things. Sometimes the titles do matter.

I think, for me personally, go where you're comfortable. Go where you do well. I'm not an Instagram guy. I'm just not going to go to Instagram.

Dave Jackson: I'm

JIm Collison: leaving money on the table, metaphorically speaking. Instagram is still very, very popular, a lot of traffic out there, a lot of stuff going on. But I want to go kind of where I'm comfortable. And I gathered kind of a tech audience on, on Twitter before the whole, the whole thing blew up and kind of walked away from it for a while. And I've been coming back to see if I can reestablish that tech audience that's out there for whatever reason.

Should you go to Twitter, let's or X, you, you make that decision. You go where you want to go. Don't judge people for where they are. Just do your thing, right, from that standpoint. But my advice, Dave, be consistent with it.

Provide value. Don't spam. And if you do, just apologize. And then, like, like, just, just be consistent. Be helpful.

I think that's what people are looking for, you know, to Ralph's comment about, Are people burned out? No, they're burned out on, on people who are doing all those things. Right? Just if you don't like those people, just stop following them. Most of the time, we want to see the car wreck, though.

Like, most of the time, we wanna see the train come off the tracks. Like, that's... You want it. You're there because you wanna see some of those some of those things. But that being said, consistency, I think, is the is the key on that.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Todd the Gator, they're talking about how we do need reminded that there's a new episode. I mean, if you think about it, every YouTuber ends their... Most of them end their video with, hey. If you like this, be sure to tell a friend and like, subscribe, and ring the bell.

We all know what the subscribe button does. So why they... Because it it works. So, Todd the Gator says, look how long movie trailers are released in advance these days. Like, for, like, 8 months.

Yeah. The

JIm Collison: And there's 1000 of them.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Oh my god. I just... I mean, the... I just realized the Avengers movie isn't coming out till, like, Christmas, and they've been promoting that already for 2 months.

The the I am Rocky movie has been being promoted. And what's interesting is Digger... What's interesting, I was gonna go see Digger with Tom Cruise until the early reviews came out. And everybody said you'll either like it or you'll hate it. It's 1 of those movies.

And I'm like, that means I can stream it. That's okay. The, let's see. Ralph says, basically, that makes sense in terms of all this stuff, but do downloads actually help you meet your purpose or or why for your content? Yeah.

If you think about it. If we... Oh, I just did that thing I hate. I gotta put somebody else up on the screen where you, yeah. He says clicks and views are vanity metrics, but what actions are you actually seeing?

That is what he's really asking. So if you think about it, 1st of all, they have to find you. They have to find you, and that's either word-of-mouth, paid ads, or organic. And so when you put in episode 16 and then your show notes are, in this episode, I talk with Jim about geeky stuff. Okay.

Great. Congratulations on the 14 words you've put together. Google's not finding you, period. So they gotta find you 1st, then they gotta click on you. So, again, episode 16, Jim Cullison, does not make me wanna click.

But if it's, you know, how Jim Cullison turned a broken blender into the, you know, invention of a lifetime, yeah, okay. I might wanna click on that. You know? So they've... You gotta get them to click, then you gotta get them to listen.

So don't be boring. And then from there, your call to action is either buy my stuff, buy us... If you if you want to make money with your podcast, you're either gonna have a huge audience so that you're getting paid for access to your audience, or they're gonna pull out their wallet and give it to somebody. That's either a sponsor or you. And whichever 1 you wanna do, but that's...

If they're pulling out their wallet, it's going to somebody. And so you're either getting paid for access to your audience or you're getting paid for, you know, Patreon, Supercast, you know, or your products and services. But, so, yeah, downloads... I mean, that's the progression. They find you.

They click you. They consume your content, and then they do whatever you want them to do. Would you, am I missing anything there, Jim?

JIm Collison: I think you're, I think you're right on. I think we have to remember, right, these advertising algorithms are designed for these platforms to make money, right? And you get a benefit. They want you, they want your content, because they want to find the best content that they can to keep people on their site. That's the goal of all these platforms.

How do we keep eyeballs on YouTube? How do we keep eyeballs on Instagram? How do we keep eyeballs on TikTok? Right? That's the whole purpose of what they're doing here.

And so your, what you're trying to do is maximize your content for their platform to meet their algorithm, hoping that you get some advertising. And you know what? Some folks have done really, really well in this space.

Dave Jackson: Oh, man.

JIm Collison: Yeah. And so there, there's, there could be, I can guarantee you this, if you don't do it, you won't know if you're good or not on that platform. Right? If you, that I can guarantee. And if you, if you don't try, it won't happen.

But if you do try, don't try 1 time. I mean, I told you guys before I was doing this clips experiment in, in Shorts. I'm gonna do before I make any kind of decision whether I do this or not. Over the, I did 4 last week and 5 the week before. I'm doing 3 or 4 this week.

And, and I want to just kind of experiment. Is that the right place to go? It, am I looking for, you know, to use Ralph's terms, vanity numbers? Listen, vanity metrics are still metrics. And so from my standpoint, do I live and die by them?

No, you know, whatever. But they're still a metric. I don't care if it's 1 2nd. It's an opportunity. It's a metric.

Been using Ask Studio to ferret out for me what that means when these come in. It's done an amazing job of being able to tell me how long people are staying on the video before they swipe away and what the real engagement is on it. And so after a week, pull some stats for Mass Studio. Hey, what do these things really mean? What are we really trying to judge on this?

Because I am looking for both that is YouTube serving these Shorts out there? That's a metric. That's the vanity metric. Are they serving it? Nobody's going to watch it if they're not serving it.

So I got to get them serving it. And then is the content I'm making on there good enough that people stay? That's the 2nd question that you have to ask yourself, right? This is the hard question for podcasters, Dave, because it's personal. Like, you're like, Well, maybe my stuff, people don't want to stay for it.

Yeah, maybe they don't. Right? And so you have to ask yourself that question of, Am I creating content that's engaging along those lines? Now, I'm just using YouTube as the example, because that is what I'm doing right now. But you could do that on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, you know, whatever area you're at.

Dave Jackson: You, you mentioned an experiment. Rich Graham says, Pat Flynn's Shortz experiment really paid off for him. He committed to 60 days. It was a test instead of 30 days, and things started picking up after 35 or 40 days.

JIm Collison: Rich, that's a good reminder. You know, I I said I was gonna do 50 of these. I'm, based on that, what you just said, I'll go 60 days and see what, see if I see any difference between the 30 and the 60 calculation. We're keeping track of all that stuff. So appreciate that comment.

Dave Jackson: The z man says, would you guys dare... Oh, dare me to do anything, to say that all the ads are the laziest way to monetize? I wouldn't say lazy because, again, you gotta sell an advertiser on your show. Programmatic ads, yes. And that's why they pay just...

They're they're they're they're words that I can't say without getting banned. But, yeah, again, the last time I checked my Libsyn, because my numbers are really low on this 1 show that I'm running ads on, I was getting paid a dollar CPM. That's podcast welfare in my book. I'm like, thank you, but no thank you. Anyway, are all the ads the laziest way to monetize a podcast, especially if the ads are not podcast re...

That's the thing. If they're not relevant to your audience, shame on you. Shame on you for putting an ad about, you know, whatever. What's the Magazine for Old People? If you're running AARP on your K pop show, no.

Like, just come on now. You never know.

JIm Collison: I mean, if they pay well for it, why wouldn't you?

Dave Jackson: Because it's complete... There's nobody that's listening me. Maybe you got a whole... A k pop audience

JIm Collison: that you didn't know.

Dave Jackson: But the 21 year old is going, I'm gonna start my AARP early.

JIm Collison: Maybe there's a bunch of, you know, 60 year olds listen... Trying to be relevant, and they're listening to this k pop thing. Right? You know? Listen.

I... If the... You you take money if they're throwing it at you, but but, you know

Dave Jackson: See, don't... I disagree with that.

JIm Collison: Okay.

Dave Jackson: I'm not taking my... I mean

JIm Collison: I mean, Dave, like, they're giving you... If if, like, somebody comes to you and says, hey. We wanna advertise on your pie.

Dave Jackson: I've had this app. Let me give you the story.

JIm Collison: Alright. Alright.

Dave Jackson: Guy came to me. I'm... I wanna buy ads on your show. I'm like, great. What what do you got?

And he's like, I have this feature, and it will watch your website, and it will alert you the minute your website goes down. And I go, oh, that sounds cool, but no. Thank you. And he's like, well, why not? I said, because at that time, I'd been podcasting for about 10 years.

I said, I've never had somebody ask me, do you know of a tool that can let me know when my website goes down? I go, it's not really directly podcaster related. This could be on any podcast that somebody has a website. I go, so for me, if it's not a heck yeah, we'll keep it clean here. I'm like, then it's not going on.

And this was a friend of mine, and I was like, no. Now if he'd said, I've got a microphone. I've got software. You know? Something like that.

Now the other thing is I I learned... That was back in the early days when I would take a sponsor. Like, I had an editor that was a sponsor on the school of podcasting. Now I don't take sponsorships because I am my sponsor. So That was an Uptime Robot, was it?

The the server No. It was, oh, I forget. It was the guy that made... Oh, again, this is, like, 2015, something like that. It was a while ago.

And he was he was not happy that I was not taking his money.

JIm Collison: The good news. It's your podcast. You get to do it. That's right. That's what I love.

Right? Hey, look, and if you want to make those decisions, you're absolutely welcome to. Glen the Geek, right, he were, we were, we were talking, he and I, and I forget the context of this. I might have been on the show. And I was asking, we were talking about, remember how we used to get spammed and maybe we still do, while all these folks wanting to put content on the website and no, you know, no follow, link backs and all these things and an email charge.

And Glenn says, Glenn, and there's some like, I don't take them because that's not the right thing to do and blah blah blah. Glenn's, Glenn's like, as long as it's not gambling in his way, he's like, I take everything except gambling. And maybe, you know, born probably you wouldn't take. But he's like, I take it all. It's, they're giving me money.

I'm gonna put it on my it hasn't, it has not harmed Glenn Hebert said that? Yeah. It has not, it has not harmed or tarnished my replica my my reputation there we go, On the site. Yeah. No.

I remember Glenn saying he's like, yeah. I take them all. I take

Dave Jackson: because I remember he would only take a sponsor if he used their product. Because he said if

JIm Collison: It's not not what I remember. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. Maybe it was somebody else. But

Dave Jackson: It might be because I remember Glenn was like, he... He's left... He said thousands of dollars on the table because he... There was somebody sending him a product, and it sucked. And he's like, yeah.

I'm not I'm not... Like, you know, and he goes he goes, that guy gained great feedback. He's like

JIm Collison: If Glenn listens to the show, he'll he'll come he'll come back.

Dave Jackson: Awesome see the record.

JIm Collison: And that's okay. If he does if he does correct me. But I I think there's a philosophy there of, like, you know, do you want it to damage your reputation? Well, you decide. Like, what what are you trying to build there?

And if if the money's good, and that's what you're in it for, and it it does, it meets the goal, why wouldn't you? Yeah.

Dave Jackson: Dan says, well, I agree with the sentiment. I think a huge factor now is that people don't pull out their wallets. Yep. Tech companies reach into their wallet and take the money out

JIm Collison: of let them. When you let them.

Dave Jackson: I, boy, I fell into the trap. I bought a book, and they had the whole, oh, if you like this book, for the next 4 minutes, you can get this book 50% off. And so I was like, that's only $4. Click that 1. 0, you know, you can...

We have these as a bundle. You can save, you know, 45% if you buy all 3. Well, I'm gonna save money by spending more money. Yep. That's what I just said.

And I ended up getting all 3 books. And I was like, oh, you just you just... That that worked perfectly with a... I was like, so it's... They already had my credit card.

Right? They already was like, how much do want me to put on this? 20, 30, or 42? And I'm like, let's go 42 because what the heck? Yeah.

So it's always kind of crazy with that. Jeff says, just saw Pat at Ecamm's Creator Camp. Boy, if you ever... If you're into Ecamm, you gotta go to Creator Camp. That was a blast.

I went, not this year, but the year before and got to pet an alpaca. So, I mean, come on. Have you ever done that at podcast movement? Since I met Pat Puppies.

JIm Collison: Didn't we have puppies?

Dave Jackson: We did have puppies. That's right. Puppies and beer. Pat's results are incredible, but I don't think his results are typical. Plus, he's smarter than us.

Mere motor... Mere mortals. Absolutely. Yeah. Pat's amazing guy.

Let's see.

JIm Collison: Listen. There is... There... Let's address the elephant in the room. There are those, you know, there are all those folks out there who are in this space who promote their results all the time and having these amazing things.

And amazingly, they're in the business of getting you to subscribe to their stuff. So you'll buy their stuff to learn how they did it. I'm not saying those things are more spectacular than they actually are. But be careful, friends. Like, I mean, we're chasing these.

It's just like the folks that chased John Lee Dumas in the day when he was doing his thing. Everybody wanted to be John Lee Dumas. There's great principles in there. Please, on your side, you've got to put the, they all have put the work and the effort and have paid, many of them have paid people to do this for them, right? You're not.

And then you're like, How come I'm not, I'm so busy. This takes so much work. They paid people to do these things in a lot of cases, or they're early in the space doing this, right, or whatever. So your mileage may vary on that. Just know there's no free lunch, right?

You're going to get out there,

Dave Jackson: going to

JIm Collison: do the work, you're going to have to make the clips, you're going to do the effort, you're going have to schedule the posts, you're going to create the content. All those things, if you do it, you pay for it. Either you pay someone else or you pay in your time. That's it.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. Jeff says, yeah, Pat just sold, Smart Passive Income to Liz Wilcox, who I saw at Podcast Movement, and they're both doing pretty well. Yeah. That was a great That's great. Yeah.

Great for her. And, speaking of paying people, we should probably take a 2nd here before I run out the door. Yeah. To our, awesome supporters, thank you so much. And, again, we really wanna thank, Karen over at alonglookpodcast.com.

I'll have a link to that in the show notes. But if you're a fan of art, you're gonna love this podcast. So, again, thank you, Karen, so much for being an awesome supporter. And, she's right there on the slide if you're watching this. You know, 1 thing I've noticed, because I just did it.

I just said if you're looking at the slide, I need to stop saying things because people that are listening right now just felt left out, and I didn't mean to do that to you. So my apologies.

JIm Collison: Could add an or to that. You could say if you're listening on the slide or if you're listening to the audio only of this, we've got the blah blah blah.

Dave Jackson: Come out

JIm Collison: and watch the video. You could say that too.

Dave Jackson: And we'll we'll talk about Stevie from, who'sondrums,.com next week as well. But, thanks for being an awesome supporter. The show is brought to you by the school of podcasting where if you use the coupon code coach, you can get a discount on either a monthly, quarterly, or yearly subscription. And, of course, that comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. When you go out to askthepodcastcoach.com, you're looking at a pod page because, you know, your podcast deserves a really nice home, and that's what you can get at pod page.

Check it out at trypodpage.com. And if you need more Jim Cullison because you're like, man, that guy with the glasses, of course, we both have glasses. That guy in the dark gray shirt is making a whole lot of sense today. Then go over to theaverageguy.tv and check out his show, home gadget geeks. And, November 7, if you like Cliff Raven's craft, well, you're gonna get a whole day of him at podindie.com.

Why does that say .co? That's weird. That is a, here again, always... I reuploaded these slides because I had to add the new people. And if you see the m is behind the Pot Indy kinda logo that I made.

JIm Collison: I do see it there.

Dave Jackson: Yeah. So it squished my my

JIm Collison: Wrong font color.

Dave Jackson: Font. Yeah. I was like, but it's potindy.com. Use the coupon code SOP. This is November 7 from 9 to 4.

It's a 1 day event. I'll be there speaking. John Lee Dumas is gonna send in a video. So there's... There'll be me, John, and, of course, the podcast answer man, Cliff Ravenscraff.

Check it out. Podindy.com. And now it's time for the featured person of the week, which is funny because Dave forgot to start that up in the background, but that's alright. We will go back to StreamYard, and we will now share the screen, which is this 1, which looks weird. Right?

Oh, I... That's... This is so weird. I don't know why they do this. But when I'm sharing screens, I have to remove the other 1 1st.

But, anyway, we will spin the wheel. Who will it be? Will it be 1 of the the 2 new people, or will it be somebody like Ralph, or will it be good old Greg? It is good old Greg. And, Greg, I've reached out to multiple times because we're talking about indydropin.com, which, Greg, if you're still listening, buddy, that website doesn't exist, and I would be happy to promote something else.

But I do appreciate your your patronage and your your support. But, yeah. So thanks for being an awesome supporter. And if we now remove that so I can add that, you can be an awesome supporter. Just go over to ask the podcastcoach.com/awesome.

Because maybe today we saved you some time or saved you money. Maybe we made you think today, or maybe we made you smile. Because you could be like Karen or next week, we're gonna do a big shout out for Stevie, and you get a big shout out when we do that when you go over to askthepodcast coach.com/awesome. So thanks to all of our awesome supporters. Oh, that's really weird.

JIm Collison: And,

Dave Jackson: we deeply appreciate that. Jim, what is coming up on Home Gadget Geeks?

JIm Collison: Yeah. Phil Phil Phil Hawthorne from the, from the Home Assistant podcast joins me, and we talk a little bit about Home Automation and Home Assistant. By the way, Home Assistant's coming on these days. I think this is 1 of these tools where AI has definitely made it easier to use for, for local home automation control and some of those kinds of things. So a little bit, a little bit geeky of a podcast, but you may get some stuff out of it.

He has a little secret. He got a new Tesla, and he's got kind of an interesting event that happened to him in the Tesla. It's not what you're thinking. Check it out today. Home gadget geeks.

No. That doesn't work right now. The average guy dot

Dave Jackson: TV. TV.

JIm Collison: Yeah. I gotta get that fixed. I'm gonna have AI help me fix that today.

Dave Jackson: Also, if you're speaking of, home assistance, if you upgrade to, we'll just call her Lexi, Lexi plus from the people at Amazon, It breaks the pocket cast thing because I I actually went back to the old, what's her name so I can walk into the kitchen and go, hey. What's her name? Open pocket cast, and she'll ask me, would you like to continue listening to episode, you know, 1,006 of the blah blah blah show? And that doesn't work on the new... And the new Lexi is just...

She'd be like, alright, chief. She's, like, sassy. Oh, really? Yeah. It's really stupid.

It's really, really dumb. And then it didn't work 0.5 the time. It was driving me. And I... Anyway, don't get me started on that.

On the school of podcasting, I'm gonna be talking about... I mentioned that we've been meeting on Wednesdays and just talking about growth strategies. So I'm gonna talk about some of those. And in, the case of Mark from, practical prepping, he's actually been doing the work that Jim was talking about and has seen close to 20% increase in his reach. So, you know, if you do the work and you got great content, in some cases, it actually works.

So, thanks for everyone, coming out today, and, we'll see you next week with another episode of ask the podcast coach.